9/11

I was in work. It was between 1 and 2pm here in England. I heard the news from word of mouth that there’d be some sort of disaster in New York. We all switched on the radio to hear more. Apparently one or two planes had crashed into the World Trade Centre. It wasn’t immediately apparent that it was a deliberate attack.

I remember coming home that Tuesday evening and watching the footage over and over again. It is the only time in my life I can recall my blood feeling cold. The words chilling, haunting, and unbelievable are used too often, but they were understatements in this case. That was 6 years ago.

As chance would have it, the 6th anniversary of those atrocities also falls on a Tuesday. May we never forget those thousands of innocent people whose lives were cruelly snuffed out for absolutely no good reason. The bravery and courage of others who risked and gave their own lives to save their fellowman stands in stark contrast to the evil minority who chose to slaughter their fellowman in the name of everything inhuman. Let it also be a reminder of what happens when people forsake reason for righteousness and facts for faith.

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Posted in Life, News. 16 Comments »

16 Responses to “9/11”

  1. Twelve Says:

    The actions they committed were not righteous. They were despicable.
    I hope you aren’t attacking all religions with this.

  2. evanescent Says:

    Actually Twelve, or is it D, I am.

    All religions are based on faith. Faith is belief without evidence. If you believe without evidence you can “justify” any action, and how are we to choose between the faith of one sect and that of another? Well, we can’t.

    Faith is despicable. All faith.

  3. Twelve Says:

    All religions are based on faith. Faith is belief without evidence. If you believe without evidence you can “justify” any action, and how are we to choose between the faith of one sect and that of another? Well, we can’t.

    Actually, Christianity provides plenty of evidence, you just have to really think about it if you aren’t a Christian already. I was raised a Christian, and it always made sense to me, so I started to think about why I believed what I believed, and still, it all made sense, while other theories didn’t. I found the big bang theory to either be a paradox or a simple rejection to all answers, especially to that of religion.

    Faith is despicable. All faith.

    Pessimist.

    Actually, faith is not despicable. You have faith in more things than you know. You have faith that you’ll live to see tomorrow. You have faith that science has all the answers. You have faith that you won’t have a seizure the very next second. You have faith that you won’t die for no reason. You have faith that when you press a button on the keyboard, that a letter will appear on the screen. You have faith that you aren’t dreaming. You have faith…..
    I can go on, eva. The fact of the matter is, you are calling belief, in itself, despicable. If you believe you are right, that is despicable, according to you, of course, because you have faith that you are right.
    So no, faith is not despicable.
    It wasn’t faith that drove muslims into the Towers. It was a pure misconception of life that humans are leaning towards these days. Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the U.S., and the fastest-growing population everywhere else. I doubt there’s any stopping that, but it would be wrong to blame all religions for what those radical muslims did.
    I’m not muslim, I don’t agree with muslims, but I don’t hate muslims either. I know that they are people, and they have simply fallen into the wrong belief system. I believe islam originated because some guy didn’t like the idea of being a sinner, so took Christianity and twisted so much that islam arose.
    Islam is the worst religion when it comes to “justifying” certain actions. Christians don’t get taught to go out and kill people, we get taught the opposite. Buddhism isn’t violent either, and many other religions are like buddhism. There is satanism, but that isn’t really practiced much at all anywhere.

  4. evanescent Says:

    Actually, Christianity provides plenty of evidence, you just have to really think about it if you aren’t a Christian already. I was raised a Christian, and it always made sense to me, so I started to think about why I believed what I believed, and still, it all made sense, while other theories didn’t. I found the big bang theory to either be a paradox or a simple rejection to all answers, especially to that of religion.

    Perhaps you should explain your misgivings about the Big Bang to Stephen Hawking? Maybe you could teach him a thing or two that he’s missed??

    Pessimist.

    Realist.

    Actually, faith is not despicable. You have faith in more things than you know. You have faith that you’ll live to see tomorrow.

    Faith is belief without evidence. There is very very good reason for me to believe I’ll live to see tomorrow.

    You have faith that science has all the answers.

    I don’t think science has all the answers yet. But I think if science can’t figure it out, nobody else will.

    You have faith that you won’t have a seizure the very next second. You have faith that you won’t die for no reason. You have faith that when you press a button on the keyboard, that a letter will appear on the screen. You have faith that you aren’t dreaming. You have faith…..

    Rubbish. Faith is belief without evidence. I have evidence for the working of keyboards and my nervous system, so these things aren’t matters of faith.

    I can go on, eva. The fact of the matter is, you are calling belief, in itself, despicable. If you believe you are right, that is despicable, according to you, of course, because you have faith that you are right.

    No. LISTEN: faith is belief without evidence. It is faith that is despicable. Got it?

    It wasn’t faith that drove muslims into the Towers. It was a pure misconception of life that humans are leaning towards these days. Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the U.S., and the fastest-growing population everywhere else. I doubt there’s any stopping that, but it would be wrong to blame all religions for what those radical muslims did.

    Absolutely unadulterated garbage. You have no idea what you’re talking about. It was precisely faith that led terrorists to commit the 9/11 atrocities. I’m not blaming all religions for the actions of a few, I’m blaming faith for most of the problems in the world.

    I’m not muslim, I don’t agree with muslims, but I don’t hate muslims either. I know that they are people, and they have simply fallen into the wrong belief system. I believe islam originated because some guy didn’t like the idea of being a sinner, so took Christianity and twisted so much that islam arose.

    There is no more evidence or reason to favour Christianity over islam.

    Islam is the worst religion when it comes to “justifying” certain actions. Christians don’t get taught to go out and kill people,

    Most of you don’t ANYMORE. But for centuries Christians were taught this. I could name many examples, but as a Christian I expect you to know the history of your own religion.

    we get taught the opposite. Buddhism isn’t violent either, and many other religions are like buddhism. There is satanism, but that isn’t really practiced much at all anywhere.

    Faith is belief without evidence. There is nothing good or virtuous about faith.

    By trying to compare faith with regular everyday belief, you are being dishonest and manipulative. There is a clear difference and you know full well what that difference is. Did you really expect me to not call you on this?

    All religions require faith of some level because none of them can justify their belief systems. It ultimately comes down to: “you just have to have faith.” Which of course is Theistspeak for “we can’t prove it, but you can’t question it. just believe.” It is, and continues to be, one of the most sinister and insidious inventions of all time.

    Since you compare belief in Christianity to belief in tomorrow, keyboards etc, just present evidence for Christianity. Clean, clear, simple, indubitable obvious evidence that we can all see. I’m waiting. And if you think this kind of evidence exists, then you admit you don’t need faith anymore!

  5. Twelve Says:

    Perhaps you should explain your misgivings about the Big Bang to Stephen Hawking? Maybe you could teach him a thing or two that he’s missed??

    I don’t care about Stephen Hawking. Besides, you seem capable enough to explain where this “singularity” came from. If you can’t, then you simply prove my point that the big bang is either a paradox or a rejection of all other answers, which is really immature.

    Realist.

    Keep telling yourself that.

    Faith is belief without evidence. There is very very good reason for me to believe I’ll live to see tomorrow.

    What, have you looked into the future?

    I don’t think science has all the answers yet. But I think if science can’t figure it out, nobody else will.

    Untrue. Science couldn’t figure out what 2 plus 2 equals, which is where math (a form of logic) comes in.

    Rubbish. Faith is belief without evidence. I have evidence for the working of keyboards and my nervous system, so these things aren’t matters of faith.

    I say again: Untrue. They are such a matter of faith. You don’t know with absolute certainty that your keyboard will work, but you have a lot of faith that it will. You have no evidence that your keyboard will work. You have evidence that it worked before, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will work now.

    No. LISTEN: faith is belief without evidence. It is faith that is despicable. Got it?

    Faith is not belief without evidence. You can have all the evidence in the world and have faith. Faith simply doesn’t rest on evidence. Faith stands alone, but it doesn’t have to stand alone.
    And because you call faith despicable, you have committed very many despicable acts by having faith, therefore you are a despicable person by your own standards.

    Absolutely unadulterated garbage. You have no idea what you’re talking about. It was precisely faith that led terrorists to commit the 9/11 atrocities.

    What did they have faith in?!? That they’d run into the towers?

    I’m not blaming all religions for the actions of a few, I’m blaming faith for most of the problems in the world.

    Faith is hope. Hope is faith. If they are one and the same, and you say that all the problems in the world (most, whatever) are because people hope and have faith. You wish for everyone to abandon hope and be pessimists?
    Faith does not cause problems. Pure misconceptions do, like the misconceptions the muslims who struck down the Towers had. They were taught that they’d be rewarded if they died while killing those who weren’t muslims around them, but they were wrong. Sure, there was faith involved, but faith is involved with everything.

    There is no more evidence or reason to favour Christianity over islam.>

    Yes there is. What have Christians done to make you hate them? Were Christians the ones who destroyed the Towers? No, Christians help people. Christian missionaries go from country to country, giving food, donating clothes and other things to poor countries in need of such luxuries that Americans take for granted, and the thanks they get is your insults?

    Most of you don’t ANYMORE. But for centuries Christians were taught this. I could name many examples, but as a Christian I expect you to know the history of your own religion.

    I can tell you right now that you don’t know ANYTHING about the Crusades, which by the way, was originally political until they couldn’t get support, so they turned it into a religious thing.
    Galileo’s theories were rejected by the professors who, like those who started the Crusades, turned it into a religious things, and because of the influence they had, some people got burned at the stake.

    Before you tell me I’m wrong, look it up, and try to get as much information as possible about these two subjects and tell me everything you find and/or just give me a link to a source with every detail.

    Faith is belief without evidence. There is nothing good or virtuous about faith.

    Atheism a belief without evidence. There is nothing good or virtuous about atheism.

    See how easy it is to say something? Now start proving something.

    By trying to compare faith with regular everyday belief, you are being dishonest and manipulative. There is a clear difference and you know full well what that difference is. Did you really expect me to not call you on this?

    I expected better. Look, you haven’t even told me what kind of faith you are talking about. You just started saying things like, “faith is evil. faith is the reason for the bad things in this world,” without ANY backup whatsoever.

    What if Christianity IS an everyday belief? Not for everyone, but for Christians, and you would be just as dishonest and manipulative to compare faith to religion, the everyday beliefs for most humans.

    All religions require faith of some level because none of them can justify their belief systems. It ultimately comes down to: “you just have to have faith.” Which of course is Theistspeak for “we can’t prove it, but you can’t question it. just believe.” It is, and continues to be, one of the most sinister and insidious inventions of all time.

    Garbage. Radioactive garbage that must be thrown out, burned, and its ashes disintegrated.

    Theists CAN and HAVE proved God’s existence time and time again, but not everyone can comprehend all that there is to know and learn about it. It is so complicated, that faith is the easiest way out. I don’t agree with that method, but then again, about half of theists don’t. You may have heard, “just have to have faith,” before, but I doubt that you’ve heard it very much. Of course, if one does have faith before fully considering the option, he/she will have an easier time understanding it.

    Since you compare belief in Christianity to belief in tomorrow, keyboards etc, just present evidence for Christianity. Clean, clear, simple, indubitable obvious evidence that we can all see. I’m waiting. And if you think this kind of evidence exists, then you admit you don’t need faith anymore!

    I didn’t say I needed it. It just helps…..a lot. Give me some time, and I should eventually have enough information compiled into one place to give you. I’ll just tell you why God exists, and the big bang didn’t happen the way you say it did.

  6. evanescent Says:

    I don’t care about Stephen Hawking. Besides, you seem capable enough to explain where this “singularity” came from. If you can’t, then you simply prove my point that the big bang is either a paradox or a rejection of all other answers, which is really immature.

    Of course you don’t care about Stephen Hawking. Why would someone who writes of the big bang because he doesn’t understand it care about one of leading cosmologists and physicists in the world?

    Where did god come from?

    What, have you looked into the future?

    No, but there is no reason at all for me to think I will die tomorrow. It would be irrational for me to think so.

    Untrue. Science couldn’t figure out what 2 plus 2 equals, which is where math (a form of logic) comes in.

    You argue like a child, D. You know full well we were talking about explaining nature, which is what science does.

    What you just did is like saying “can science explain everything?”. And I say: “well if it can’t then nothing else can.” And you say: “oh well how can science explain poetry? Nar nar na nar nar.”

    Pathetic.

    I say again: Untrue. They are such a matter of faith. You don’t know with absolute certainty that your keyboard will work, but you have a lot of faith that it will. You have no evidence that your keyboard will work. You have evidence that it worked before, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it will work now.

    If you’re trying to raise a problem about induction and knowledge, D, you’re way off.

    Who said anything about absolute knowledge? I don’t need absolute knowledge to believe things reasonably. I don’t know with 100% certainty that the remote control will switch the TV on, but I’ll still use it.

    But of course, absolute knowledge is irrelevant. It is a red herring. There are degrees to which it is reasonable to believe something.

    Faith is belief without, or in spite of, evidence.

    What did they have faith in?!? That they’d run into the towers?

    Eh? They had faith that they were doing god’s will, and that when they died they’d go to the afterlife to receive 72 virgins. There was no evidence for their beliefs, but they believed them anyway. This is faith.

    They were taught that they’d be rewarded if they died while killing those who weren’t muslims around them, but they were wrong. Sure, there was faith involved, but faith is involved with everything.

    They were taught something that couldn’t be supported by evidence. Just like all theists.

    Faith is not involved with everything in life.

    What have Christians done to make you hate them? Were Christians the ones who destroyed the Towers? No, Christians help people. Christian missionaries go from country to country, giving food, donating clothes and other things to poor countries in need of such luxuries that Americans take for granted, and the thanks they get is your insults?

    I don’t hate Christians, I hate Christianity and religion.

    Many religious people do good things. So do many atheists. Many christians have done terrible things in the name of religion. Those spiritual blinkers you wear are a menace, they might lead you to overlook incredibly obvious facts about the past of Christianity, like, oh I don’t know: the Ku Klux Klan, the witch trials, the crusades, the spanish inquisition, lies about sex and condoms, abstinence, wars in northern Ireland etc etc.

    Atheism a belief without evidence. There is nothing good or virtuous about atheism.

    The burden of proof is on you, theist, to prove god.

    I expected better. Look, you haven’t even told me what kind of faith you are talking about. You just started saying things like, “faith is evil. faith is the reason for the bad things in this world,” without ANY backup whatsoever.

    There is only one kind of faith. The word faith, as defined by the religious, not me!, is belief without evidence. Read Hebrews 11:1.

    Religion has caused so much suffering and death. If people were taught to question instead of just believe, this would be nigh on impossible.

    Belief without evidence is why so many people believe nonsense, and why they act in the name of that nonsense.

    What if Christianity IS an everyday belief? Not for everyone, but for Christians, and you would be just as dishonest and manipulative to compare faith to religion, the everyday beliefs for most humans.

    Are you saying christianity doesn’t require faith??

    Theists CAN and HAVE proved God’s existence time and time again, but not everyone can comprehend all that there is to know and learn about it.

    If you’re right, you’re saying that god really wants us to believe in him, but the best he can do is provide dubious arguments that most people can’t comprehend?! That’s a bit silly of him isn’t it?

    If god exists, he knows me, so he knows exactly what it would take to convince me. He hasn’t done so yet, so obviously he doesn’t care. Or he doesn’t exist.

    Of course, if one does have faith before fully considering the option, he/she will have an easier time understanding it.

    Well then why bother with faith? Why not just not come to any conclusion until a logical decision can be made on the available evidence? Isn’t that the honest thing to do?

    If there is evidence of god, you don’t need faith. If you need faith, there is no evidence, in other words no reason to believe. Either way, christianity is doomed.

  7. Twelve Says:

    Of course you don’t care about Stephen Hawking. Why would someone who writes of the big bang because he doesn’t understand it care about one of leading cosmologists and physicists in the world?

    I don’t care if he’s one of the leading cosmologists and physicists of the world. That doesn’t make his statements any more true or any less false. It also doesn’t make him more intelligent than everyone else, because quite frankly, smart people have no common sense whatsoever.

    Where did god come from?

    I ask again. Do you even read what I write? But just to be polite:
    God doesn’t have an origin, because He is eternal. An eternal being cannot have a beginning. His being eternal might have to do with the fact that He is outside of time (not subject to the laws and effects of time), but I may be wrong.

    No, but there is no reason at all for me to think I will die tomorrow. It would be irrational for me to think so.

    There’s no reason to think you will.

    You argue like a child, D.

    As do you.

    What you just did is like saying “can science explain everything?”. And I say: “well if it can’t then nothing else can.” And you say: “oh well how can science explain poetry? Nar nar na nar nar.”

    Pathetic.

    I’ve seen worse from you.

    And as a matter of fact, I did not write that as a childish statement. Math is a form of logic, correct? Well, if science can’t explain logic, then science cannot stand on its own. Therefore, logic can figure things out that science can’t, and you said that if science can’t figure something out, that nobody can figure it out, which shows that you rely on science too much, while you could simply use logic, which is much more efficient.

    Who said anything about absolute knowledge? I don’t need absolute knowledge to believe things reasonably. I don’t know with 100% certainty that the remote control will switch the TV on, but I’ll still use it.

    But of course, absolute knowledge is irrelevant. It is a red herring. There are degrees to which it is reasonable to believe something.

    Faith is belief without, or in spite of, evidence.

    Well I have just a good a reason to believe that God exists as you do to believe your keyboard works. Although you may disagree, I know what I know and why I believe I know it to be true. I simply may not be able to communicate this knowledge to you, but I believe that God exists as much I do my own existence. So what’s the difference?

    Eh? They had faith that they were doing god’s will, and that when they died they’d go to the afterlife to receive 72 virgins. There was no evidence for their beliefs, but they believed them anyway. This is faith.

    But were they not extremely sure of this? Yes. Are you just as sure that your keyboard will work (remember that there is no evidence that your keyboard will work either)? Yes. Therefore I ask again, what’s the difference?

    They were taught something that couldn’t be supported by evidence. Just like all theists.

    Faith is not involved with everything in life.

    As you were taught that a keyboard will work and that isn’t supported by evidence either, because the evidence comes after the result, and because we’re speaking in future-tence, there is no evidence yet of either.

    Would you care to tell me where faith isn’t involved?

    The burden of proof is on you, theist, to prove god.

    Patience. It takes a while to make a post long enough to explain something to an atheist. I have to repeat myself several times so as to remind you of things that I said a paragraph earlier.

    Religion has caused so much suffering and death.

    Care to back that up, Sir Rantsalot? (horrible, horrible pun, but I had to)

    If people were taught to question instead of just believe, this would be nigh on impossible.

    Belief without evidence is why so many people believe nonsense, and why they act in the name of that nonsense.

    You question, but you don’t believe, which is worse than believing without question. You simply refuse all religions without offering an explanation of your own. You simply turn away from all explanations, right or wrong, and don’t bother to try to find the answer yourself.

    Are you saying christianity doesn’t require faith??

    No. It takes very little faith for those who have already become Christians, because Christians are absolutely certain that God does exist and the religion they follow is the one to follow.
    However, it does take some faith to open your mind to Christianity, or to anything at all for that matter. You cannot change your mind on any subject without faith, because you have to have faith to open your mind, which you don’t do.

    If you’re right, you’re saying that god really wants us to believe in him, but the best he can do is provide dubious arguments that most people can’t comprehend?! That’s a bit silly of him isn’t it?

    It is so complicated, that some people just can’t comprehend it until they actually begin to think about it. Some people just aren’t able to process such a large amount of logic and information to completely comprehend it at first, but if some time is taken and used to think about it, it all becomes clear. It is never too hard to understand, just difficult, but God knows full and well that humans can figure out at least that much.

    If god exists, he knows me, so he knows exactly what it would take to convince me. He hasn’t done so yet, so obviously he doesn’t care. Or he doesn’t exist.

    What kind of logic is that?

    If the God I believe in is the true God, and I am correct, then you would have not done well to remain a Jehovah’s Witness, which is a non-Christian cult. The only way out would probably be to turn away from religion all together. And after all you have said, do you know how dramatic a difference you could make if you turned to Christianity?
    By the way, what would it take to convince you?

    If there is evidence of god, you don’t need faith. If you need faith, there is no evidence, in other words no reason to believe. Either way, christianity is doomed.

    I simply said that faith would make things easier, but I did not say that it was the only option.

    Christianity is not doomed. There is plenty of evidence for God, and logic can be used to understand this. Basically, if God does exist, then all that does exist is the evidence for His existence. There have also been cases such as that of the Old Testament when God made direct intervention, but they are very rare, because most humans these days would just think that it was an over-reaction of their brain or something. For instance, people that have died and gone to Heaven and came back told the tale, but the experts said that it was just their brains over-reacting to the shock of dying/coming back to life. Direct intervention just wouldn’t work these days.
    As a matter of fact, Christianity will always be around. I guarantee you that Christianity won’t disappear at any point in time, and will still be around when you die, that’s for sure. This is because it makes so much sense and explains everything so well, that it is impossible to be rid of it. It is just too convincing.

  8. evanescent Says:

    I don’t care if he’s one of the leading cosmologists and physicists of the world. That doesn’t make his statements any more true or any less false. It also doesn’t make him more intelligent than everyone else, because quite frankly, smart people have no common sense whatsoever.

    You sound like a kid.

    In a discussion about the nature of spacetime am I going to listen to the leading cosmologist in the world or ignorant theist kid with a blog? Hmm it’s a tough one.

    I ask again. Do you even read what I write? But just to be polite:
    God doesn’t have an origin, because He is eternal. An eternal being cannot have a beginning. His being eternal might have to do with the fact that He is outside of time (not subject to the laws and effects of time), but I may be wrong.

    Ok: the singularity was eternal. It caused spacetime but it was outside of spacetime so it doesn’t require a beginning or an explanation.

    My Big Bang explanation is better than yours because we know the big bang exists. We don’t need to posit an extra being to explain anything.

    There’s no reason to think you will.

    Still here, D. Still alive and kicking! Just like I thought!

    And as a matter of fact, I did not write that as a childish statement. Math is a form of logic, correct? Well, if science can’t explain logic, then science cannot stand on its own.

    This is actually wrong. For one, science probably can explain logic: it is the word we give for the constants and principles that our universe is predicated on.

    And even if science can’t explain logic, so what? It can still use it!

    That’s like me saying to you if you can’t explain what a prime number is, you can’t tell me what 2+2 is.

    Therefore, logic can figure things out that science can’t, and you said that if science can’t figure something out, that nobody can figure it out, which shows that you rely on science too much, while you could simply use logic, which is much more efficient.

    Non sequitor. Logic is laws.

    Logic can’t tell you how far away the stars are etc. Science does this, using principles of maths, all of which are based on logic.

    Although you may disagree, I know what I know and why I believe I know it to be true. I simply may not be able to communicate this knowledge to you, but I believe that God exists as much I do my own existence. So what’s the difference?

    I know you believe, but that doesn’t make it true. Millions of people really really want to believe in their god, but he’s just a myth D. Sorry, but he doesn’t exist. You can’t prove it to anyone but yourself because he only exists in your mind. Have you ever wondered why it’s so hard to convince people? I know I used to when I was a theist. It’s because there is simply no reason to believe in god. When you de-convert and your mind isn’t polluted with fairy tales, you’ll understand.

    But were they not extremely sure of this? Yes. Are you just as sure that your keyboard will work (remember that there is no evidence that your keyboard will work either)? Yes. Therefore I ask again, what’s the difference?

    *Sigh*. But there is evidence of how my keyboard will work. Verifiable past experience of working keyboards and an understanding of how keyboards work. In fact, it would be extremely unusual if the keyboard suddenly stopped working, so I tacitly assume it will, based on the 99% certainty that it will. That’s not faith, my equivocating friend.

    You question, but you don’t believe, which is worse than believing without question. You simply refuse all religions without offering an explanation of your own. You simply turn away from all explanations, right or wrong, and don’t bother to try to find the answer yourself.

    Explanation of my own, for what?? What is it that I need to explain that only religion can? Religion explains nothing. It’s a heap of silly myths.

    This coming from the person who doesn’t know anything about science or evolution, then pretends he can fill in the blanks himself, and dismiss it!

    No. It takes very little faith for those who have already become Christians, because Christians are absolutely certain that God does exist and the religion they follow is the one to follow.

    Yup, blind unquestioning obedience. Irrational belief. Absolute certainty, despite no evidence. I could say the same about Muslims.

    You cannot change your mind on any subject without faith, because you have to have faith to open your mind, which you don’t do.

    So I have to believe, in order to be able to believe??

    So you admit that it’s impossible to become a christian just by looking at the facts and coming to a logical conclusion?

    If the God I believe in is the true God, and I am correct, then you would have not done well to remain a Jehovah’s Witness, which is a non-Christian cult. The only way out would probably be to turn away from religion all together. And after all you have said, do you know how dramatic a difference you could make if you turned to Christianity?

    First of all, christians can’t agree on what the bible says, so calling JWs non-christian is self-presumptuous.

    Second, what good could I possibly do as a christian that I couldn’t do being an atheist?

    Except, as an atheist, I don’t believe in an invisible fairy in the sky, I don’t believe that I’m a wicked sinner, that I should avoid certain actions for no reason, that non-believers are evil. Lies like creationism and contradictory hilarious stories like in the bible.

    By the way, what would it take to convince you?

    Well, god knows what it would take to convince me. And he hasn’t convinced me yet.

    The minimum standard of evidence I demand is clear empirical proof that god exists that couldn’t be explained any other way. Or a logical argument that proves his existence with no formal or informal fallacies or dubious assumptions.

    The above is what NO theist has ever came up with.

    Basically, if God does exist, then all that does exist is the evidence for His existence.

    And if god doesn’t exist, then all that does exist is evidence for his non-existence.

    As a matter of fact, Christianity will always be around. I guarantee you that Christianity won’t disappear at any point in time, and will still be around when you die, that’s for sure.

    Sadly, that’s problem true. But I don’t think it will be around forever.

    The moral and intellectual zeitgeist moves on. People are becoming more independent, more moral, more rational. We are thinking for ourselves. Most mainstream religion is dying, and atheists are constantly on the increase! The more society moves on and science gets better, the further away in the past your myths and fairy tales become. Just as no one takes the greek gods seriously anymore, eventually no one will take your gods seriously; just as many of us already don’t.

    And just think, all it would take is ONE WORD from god from the heavens all around the world at once to prove us all wrong. Why hasn’t he done it?? Exactly. His silence is deafening.

  9. Twelve Says:

    You sound like a kid.

    In a discussion about the nature of spacetime am I going to listen to the leading cosmologist in the world or ignorant theist kid with a blog? Hmm it’s a tough one.

    And I sound like a kid?
    What I said was that it doesn’t matter how well-known someone is. That doesn’t mean that whatever they say is automatically true.

    Ok: the singularity was eternal. It caused spacetime but it was outside of spacetime so it doesn’t require a beginning or an explanation.

    My Big Bang explanation is better than yours because we know the big bang exists. We don’t need to posit an extra being to explain anything.

    Yes you do.
    I don’t not believe in the big bang. I believe God used an explosion to create the universe. And by the way, you don’t know the big bang existed, you just think you know. There is no way of actually knowing.

    Still here, D. Still alive and kicking! Just like I thought!

    Poop, poor logic. Oooo, I lived today, so I’m bound to live tomorrow!
    I was only giving an example.

    This is actually wrong. For one, science probably can explain logic: it is the word we give for the constants and principles that our universe is predicated on.

    And even if science can’t explain logic, so what? It can still use it!

    That’s like me saying to you if you can’t explain what a prime number is, you can’t tell me what 2+2 is.

    No, it is not. Can we test to find out what logic is? No. Science can’t explain logic, and cannot stand without it. This is why logic really IS more efficient, and I suggest you start using it.

    Non sequitor. Logic is laws.

    Logic can’t tell you how far away the stars are etc. Science does this, using principles of maths, all of which are based on logic.

    Non sequitor. So math can figure out how far the stars are. Science is when you test things and use logic to come to a conclusion. You cannot test something to find out how far a star is. You can use math, like you said, which is logic, which means that logic can figure out things that science can’t.

    I know you believe, but that doesn’t make it true.

    Likewise.

    Millions of people really really want to believe in their god, but he’s just a myth D. Sorry, but he doesn’t exist. You can’t prove it to anyone but yourself because he only exists in your mind. Have you ever wondered why it’s so hard to convince people? I know I used to when I was a theist. It’s because there is simply no reason to believe in god. When you de-convert and your mind isn’t polluted with fairy tales, you’ll understand.

    That would be your opinion, and a false statement at that. I’m sorry to tell you this, but God does exist. What is more likely, an eternal singularity with no will but with the substances that make up morality and somehow, time? Or an eternal being with a will of its own that can create whatever it pleases? I choose the second one. Besides, how can singularity be eternal? By the universe being eternal? That would be stupid to say, because time cannot be eternal because there would be an endless past therefore no way to reach the present. I’m sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong. Although it is hard for you to accept, you really can be wrong, and you are.

    Now quit changing the subject. Back to the point.

    But there is evidence of how my keyboard will work. Verifiable past experience of working keyboards and an understanding of how keyboards work. In fact, it would be extremely unusual if the keyboard suddenly stopped working, so I tacitly assume it will, based on the 99% certainty that it will. That’s not faith, my equivocating friend.

    It is faith. You have no way of knowing that it will work, you are simply 99% sure, because you know how keyboards work, etc. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it will work. I’m as sure of God’s existence as you are that your keyboard will work, and we both believe these things through equivocation unless logic doesn’t count as equivocation.

    Explanation of my own, for what?? What is it that I need to explain that only religion can?

    The origin of the universe? If you don’t know it completely, I suggest trying to find out.

    Religion explains nothing. It’s a heap of silly myths.

    Assertions, assertions. Opinions, opinions.

    This coming from the person who doesn’t know anything about science or evolution, then pretends he can fill in the blanks himself, and dismiss it!

    1. I know all I need to know about evolution and more than needed about science.

    2. At least I actually LOOK for an answer, while you just sit there reprehending people for their beliefs while having extremely weak and un-supported beliefs yourself.

    3. I don’t simply fill in the blanks and dismiss it. If I did, I wouldn’t be here. I have given you plenty of reasons why I believe what I believe, and you simply don’t reply and just call religion a bunch of myths without anything to support such a claim.

    Yup, blind unquestioning obedience. Irrational belief. Absolute certainty, despite no evidence. I could say the same about Muslims.

    Certainty based on evidence is blind and unquestioning? Most Christians weren’t Christians at first, they questioned religion. Yet, they turned to Christianity. Makes you wonder if there is actually something to it.

    So I have to believe, in order to be able to believe??

    So you admit that it’s impossible to become a christian just by looking at the facts and coming to a logical conclusion?

    That is, by far, one of your least intelligent statements I’ve seen, and that’s saying something.
    You don’t have to believe in order to believe, and I never stated nor implied that. I said you have to open your mind, which does require faith.

    First of all, christians can’t agree on what the bible says, so calling JWs non-christian is self-presumptuous.

    First of all, if JWs were Christians, they would be considered a denomination, but instead, they aren’t considered Christians at all.

    Second, what good could I possibly do as a christian that I couldn’t do being an atheist?

    Answer this: What is one thing Christians do when they convert to Christians?

    Except, as an atheist, I don’t believe in an invisible fairy in the sky, I don’t believe that I’m a wicked sinner, that I should avoid certain actions for no reason, that non-believers are evil. Lies like creationism and contradictory hilarious stories like in the bible.

    In order:

    1. Neither do I.

    2. Too bad, you are.

    3. There’s always a reason: morality.

    4. Neither do I.

    5. What lies?

    Well, god knows what it would take to convince me. And he hasn’t convinced me yet.

    Obviously. I already told you why you haven’t converted, or at least some reasons for why. Maybe God did show you sufficient evidence, but you just chose to reject it.

    The minimum standard of evidence I demand is clear empirical proof that god exists that couldn’t be explained any other way. Or a logical argument that proves his existence with no formal or informal fallacies or dubious assumptions.

    So God could appear to you and you wouldn’t believe it (I rest my case), but if I proved all the “scientific” theories that have come up, wrong, you’d listen? I highly doubt that, but if I were to explain my case, would you point out the flaws the moment they came up? If you don’t, this will drag on forever.

    The above is what NO theist has ever came up with.

    That certainly is a sweeping statement, and a false one at that, because not every theist makes a point of telling you their beliefs.

    And if god doesn’t exist, then all that does exist is evidence for his non-existence.

    Another unintelligent statement. There IS no evidence for God’s non-existence, but I’d rather not get into all that just yet.

    Sadly, that’s problem true. But I don’t think it will be around forever.

    I wouldn’t call it a problem, and yes, it’ll be around forever, especially if it turns out that Christians are correct.

    People are becoming more independent, more moral, more rational. We are thinking for ourselves. Most mainstream religion is dying, and atheists are constantly on the increase!

    Hahaha! That one really made me laugh. Humans are idiots, I will tell you right now. We may be smarter than animals, but we sure aren’t very intelligent. Not to mention that humans are becoming less intelligent as technology advances. Maybe we can build things, but we sure aren’t getting any smarter, and to say we are getting more moral would be to make a gigantic mistake, because humans are not getting more moral.

    The more society moves on and science gets better, the further away in the past your myths and fairy tales become.

    The only myths or fairy tales I’ve ever believed in would be the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause, and as for fairy tales, the tooth fairy.

    Just as no one takes the greek gods seriously anymore, eventually no one will take your gods seriously; just as many of us already don’t.

    I guarantee this: you are wrong about that. You may not take Christianity seriously, but do you even give it any thought? Of course not, because you are too prideful to stoop so low as to actually open your mind to the idea that you are wrong and someone else is right. I question my religion often, and I’m not atheist yet! Maybe you should consider looking into this yourself. I’m not saying you should start going to church, you can start small and try to figure out where everything that exists came from, you’ll find that the big bang, in atheist form, is just a big, paradoxical myth that can’t stand as it is now.

    And just think, all it would take is ONE WORD from god from the heavens all around the world at once to prove us all wrong. Why hasn’t he done it?? Exactly. His silence is deafening.

    I don’t fall for nice little phrases, eva. You are lying, and you know it. You wouldn’t believe in God even if He appeared in front of your face; you would just think that you were going insane.

    Face the facts: Direct intervention just wouldn’t work these days.

  10. Twelve Says:

    Poop, poor logic. Oooo, I lived today, so I’m bound to live tomorrow!
    I was only giving an example.

    I’m sorry, honestly. I meant to say Poor, poor logic instead of that. My apologies.

  11. evanescent Says:

    D said:

    Hm…good idea, I’ll never change my mind.

    Fine. In that case, there’s no point arguing with you.

  12. Twelve Says:

    You really don’t want me here, do you eva?

    Oh well, I am here, so you’ll just have to deal with it.

  13. Twelve Says:

    To readers (if any):

    If you have anything to interject, feel free to do so. I’m open to criticism, though I apologize if I sound rude, because I really mean no offense to anyone……actually, I sometimes intend offense toward eva…..and span., but other than that…..

  14. Twelve Says:

    Fine. In that case, there’s no point arguing with you

    Well, since you won’t argue with me, I guess the readers will hear only my side of the argument. I’ll tell you right now, that isn’t a good idea.

  15. Twelve Says:

    @ eva (continued):

    Although did you really expect to de-convert me over the internet? You’ve a lot to learn.


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