Intelligent Design is NOT Science
Posted by evanescent on 30 July, 2007
The argument from intelligent design (ID) is one of the supposed proofs for god’s existence. You’d think if an incredibly powerful and intelligent being did create the earth, it would have left better evidence of its handiwork than a ruthless unsympathetic world that seems to be purposed towards nothing in particular.
You might also expect that the people he selected to laud his creation to the world would be those of deep humility, respect, and scientific knowledge. But they’re not are they? Proponents of ID have a history of spreading misinformation or blatantly lying about science and evolution.
You would also rightly expect that realisation of ID would transcend any worldview or religious leaning. But it doesn’t. Anyone who thinks the world was designed attributes it to their god, their religion. Belief in design is inseparable from belief in religion.
Also, you’d think the experts at studying this world and universe of ours, namely scientists, would be the strongest proponents of design theory. But they’re not. Why? Why are scientists so dismissive of Intelligent Design?
Quite simply, because it’s not scientific.
The argument from design is based on the premise that the universe manifests such high complexity that only purposeful design can explain it. In other words, ‘the universe looks designed, therefore it is’. But this is an opinion, not a fact. Apparent “good” design in nature might indicate design, but apparent “poor” design would indicate the opposite. So at the very least, the way nature appears prima facie hardly proves ID.
Another problem with the argument from design is that it begs the question. It is an exemplar of circular reasoning. It goes like this: ‘all the design in nature proves that there was a designer’. Now, we know that designers design things, and we know that designed things have a designer. Fact. No one is disputing that. To call a car or a watch designed is taken as fact, since we know that cars and watches are designed. But we don’t know that the universe was designed. That is what we’re trying to find out! Therefore, the argument assumes that design exists, and then postulates a designer. It assumes the very conclusion it should be trying to prove; circular reasoning.
Scientific theories must be testable, at least in principle. And since testing anything carries with it the possibility of failure, scientific theories must be disprovable (or falsifiable). For instance, to use Dawkins’ and Haldane’s example, if rabbit fossils were found in the Precambrian era, that would completely disprove evolution. What evidence would creationists accept that ID is erroneous? None. There is no evidence that would convince them that they are wrong. All the evidence in favour of evolution will not prove that fact to them. Also, any evidence against design can be interpreted by the Intelligent Design theory as part of god’s plan. In other words, give god the credit for good design, but pretend the bad design doesn’t exist but is part of an ambiguous higher purpose. Accept fossil evidence and dating when it supports ID, but when it doesn’t, claim that fossils are there to test our faith. By this logic, nothing could ever defeat ID! Creationists cannot accept that their interpretation of scripture might be wrong; that their scripture itself is wrong, or that god cannot exist. This is because ID is a religious metaphysical theory, and not science.
Scientific theories must be natural and empirical. They must be proved by empirical evidence and explained naturally. ID is a supernatural explanation and cannot be proved empirically; there is no test possible to prove that god did or didn’t design the world.
Science doesn’t start out with a dogma that cannot be altered and then seek to prove it. Science has been wrong in the past, and the acceptance of error allows better theories to be made and knowledge to increase. What are creationists doing to better scientific theory? What studies are they doing to enhance the theory of evolution or replace it with an even better theory? None. This is because they start out pretending to already know the fact: “god created everything”. Everything that contradicts that is assumed to be wrong. So yet again, ID cannot be scientific.
We all have metaphysical beliefs. Our foundational worldviews are ultimately metaphysical. This doesn’t make them wrong. What is wrong is trying to pass off a metaphysical belief as a scientific theory in order to give it a place in educational curriculum. This is dishonest and subversive. It is dishonest because Design theory is simply not science, and no more belongs in a science classroom than Shakespeare does. It is subversive because ID is inextricably religious, and is a way to push a religious agenda onto others, particularly children.
This article was not about evolution Vs creation, it was about why creationism is not and cannot be scientific. Even the most ardent creationist, if they are honest with themselves, should have the intellectual honesty to admit this. After all, evolution doesn’t disprove god. And creationism being unscientific doesn’t in itself make it false. But let’s be honest about where the lines are drawn. There are many fundamentalists who seek to obscure those lines and spread falsehoods. Why is that I wonder?
n.b.: (For a complete, honest, and properly scientific review of evolution you can visit Talk Origins or the evolution pages of Ebon Musings.)



30 July, 2007 at 12:58 am
When you say, “bad design,” you are giving an opinion. How do you know whether or not design is “bad.” Also, the scriptures (known as the Bible) do not ever use the words, “intelligent design.”
Creationism is not taught to children.
When dealing with the beginning of the earth, nothing can be proven scientifically. Things can be disproven logically, but not scientifically.
30 July, 2007 at 2:36 am
@ D
Saying design is good or bad is not just an opinion, we can be objective about it. In engineering, design isn’t just a matter of opinion - one engine may be better designed to do its job than another. If we can find an animal and think of a way in which it could have been designed better to do its job, then we can say that, if it has been designed, it’s been designed badly.
No, not in schools in America, but not for the want of trying on part of the creationists. It is indoctrinated relentlessly and mercilessly to children at home. I once had an email off a Christian in America, who told me that he homeschools his children specifically so he can teach them creationism, rather than the ‘lie’ of evolution.
What do you mean ‘logically, but not scientifically’? Even though the events being studied are in the distant pass, we can still make predictions about the future. For example, if we go and dig here, we should expect to find x, y and z. If we then go and dig and find what we expect, it is evidence in favour of the theory. This is a perfect example of a way in which the theory of evolution can be tested, where as the hypothesis of creationism cannot.
30 July, 2007 at 2:37 am
@ D
Sorry, missed a bit.
Irrelevant.
30 July, 2007 at 5:55 am
To the contrary, As Tobe38 noted, many children are taught Creationism. In addition to practically all of the religiously motivated home-schoolers, Parochial (Catholic, mostly) schools teach creationism from Grade 1, even Kindergarten.
Also, it is taught in every church based Sunday School, so that every child who does not learn it in public school, gets it on Sunday. Also, don’t forget regular Sunday sermons and Bible lessons at service. Finally, most religious people (90% of Americans, roughly) probably teach or at least reinforce the concept in some form or another at home.
So to assert that we don’t teach Creationism to children is just plain false.
Which was one reason why I never understood why it was so important to try to hide it in an alleged science lesson in Dover PA. It’s not like kids don’t already know what it is.
30 July, 2007 at 3:44 pm
@spanish inquisitor
OF COURSE CREATIONISM IS TAUGHT IN SUNDAY SCHOOL! Sunday school isn’t a gov. owned school or home school, but it is a CHURCH class for the younger kids. Note the word, “church.”
(no offense)
Actually, America isn’t as Christian as you think. Most Americans are muslim or atheist, not Christians. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America.
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tobe38
Mabye something doesn’t need to be designed “better.” How do you know what “job” an animal should be doing?
When I say, “logically,” I mean, “logically.” Logic is different than science. Logic can contradict science. Math, for example, is logic, not science, yet it is trusted.
Here’s an example of logical reasoning:
http://www.thegodargument.com/?gclid=CLKWyOei9owCFSCTWAod6iSxEQ
30 July, 2007 at 4:27 pm
D said:
Total untrue! From Wikipedia:
“According to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey (discussed below), 80% of the U.S. is Christian and 15% do not adhere to a religion.”
Tobe has already answered this. We can quite clearly see what a particular part of the anatomy does. If we can think of a way it could have been “designed” better, then we say the design is poor or inadequate.
You are dangerously close to disproving your own argument here; if we cannot say what is bad in design, then we cannot say what is good in design. Which defeats the whole “complexity = design” idea to begin with!
Give me ONE example where logic contradicts science?
Maths is the only area where anyone seriously talks about absolute certainty. Science is predicated on the rules of mathematics. Maths is always trusted. Science is not about absolute certainty. It’s about the best explanation for what we can test.
30 July, 2007 at 6:13 pm
@ D
Which children attend. The Spanish Inquisitor was responding to your sweeping statement that creationism is not taught to children.
You’re saying that more than half of American are not Christian?!
Here are some examples
Refer to Evanescent’s response, with which I concur.
30 July, 2007 at 7:45 pm
I never said I supported the complexity = design idea.
An example of logic contradicting science is the Christian belief of the creation. It is the most logical explanation, but it contradicts science.
I’m not going to explain that right now, but I remain standing by that statement.
__________________________________________
“The Spanish Inquisitor was responding to your sweeping statement that creationism is not taught to children.”
Ok, if you want to get technical with it. I was reffering to public schools. I apologize though, if that sounded offensive.
30 July, 2007 at 7:53 pm
D said:
Most logical? So, a perfect god that needs or wants for nothing, decides, for no reason, to create (after a certain amount of infinite team) something. He creates the earth, then light (before he creates the sun), then a vault of water in the sky, and puts the sun, moon and stars in this vault. Then he makes creatures and then man (or man and THEN creatures depending on if you read Genesis 1 or 2). He makes all this in 6 days. Then creates a talking snake to tempt them for something they couldn’t understand was wrong, threatens to kill them and then doesn’t, and curses human kind for all eternity for a sin they didn’t commit.
He then plants false evidence of evolution and fossils to make us think that creation never happened.
Yeah, that is extremely logical.
I think you have a drastic misunderstanding of what logic is.
Science is based on EVIDENCE. The EVIDENCE supports evolution, not creation. Therefore to say that creation is logical but contradicts science is a contradiction. You are saying that you believe in something even though there is no evidence, which is about as illogical as you can possibly get.
30 July, 2007 at 7:58 pm
@ D
Not offensive, just unclear. I wouldn’t have said anything, but for you to then reply in capital letters and an exclamation mark in a rather patronising tone to someone who responded to a point because of your lack of clarity, I found a bit rich.
30 July, 2007 at 8:11 pm
@evanescent
Why wouldn’t an eternal, perfect God decide to create?
God did create satan, or as you call him, a snake. However, God gave satan free will, and satan chose to do evil. Later, satan tricked Eve, and caused her to sin.
If God took away the free will He gave to humans and to satan, what kind of Father would He be?
_______________________________________
Make up your mind. First you say that science ISN’T absolute certainty. Then you say that science is absolutely true.
_________________________________________
Give me an example of evidence of evolution.
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I’m sure you know that not everything in the Bible is literal. The period of time it took to create each thing, such as light, could have been simply called a day by the author. A day could just be what the author called it. It doesn’t have to be literal.
And the perfect God did not curse humans for all eternity. We made a mistake, we had to be punished for it. For things to be otherwise wouldn’t be righteous.
Where in Genesis 2 does it contradict Genesis 1?
It seems that you have a closed mind when it comes to Christianity.
30 July, 2007 at 8:14 pm
I never claimed to have good clarity.
Also, how would you know what tone I had with that? We’re only using words, which make up only 7 percent of communication.
30 July, 2007 at 8:42 pm
D said:
First of all, god created a talking snake. There is no mention in the text that it is satan. That was imposed on the text later. The serpent is described at the most cunning of all the beasts of the field, and its punishment is to crawl on its belly all its days. It is obviously a literal snake that Genesis is talking about.
If God was perfect, how could he create something with the ability to do evil? That makes no sense. He should have just created perfect beings that would never choose to do evil (like himself!)
If Eve was tricked, then why did God hold her responsible? Why didn’t he warn her? She couldn’t have known she was doing wrong, since she didn’t have that knowledge before she ate of the tree anyway.
Free will does not necessitate evil. He would’ve been a better father if he didn’t allow evil in the first place; didn’t create a tempting snake; didn’t trick his creation into a test they couldn’t win; didn’t punish every human being ever for the crimes of TWO people; didn’t murder thousands in the bible; didn’t approve of rape and genocide; didn’t allow infanticide in the name of prophecy; didn’t hide all evidence of his existence; didn’t threaten eternal torture for those who don’t believe; didn’t allow hundreds of thousands to be butchered in his name; didn’t allow religions to lie and misinform; didn’t allow children to be indoctrinated and brainwashed from young; and the list goes on…
By the way, before you disagree on any of the above, make sure you know your bible first. It would be incredibly embarrassing if I quoted your own holy book to prove these things to you.
What?! Where did I say that? Give me the link or quote me exactly.
Already did do. Read the original article again.
How do you decide which parts are literal and which parts aren’t?
Unfortunately, Genesis explicitly says that there was light and darkness between each interval, “and there came to be morning and evening a 6th day”. Sounds like literal 24 hour periods to me. At least that is what the author thought.
WE didn’t make a mistake though. Two people made a MISTAKE that they were TRICKED into. Why should I pay the price for that? Why should anyone?
For that matter, why did the all-seeing god allow it to happen? If it was my kids, I wouldn’t have.
Exactly where I said it did: the order of creation of man and animals.
Well, I was raised a fundamentalist Christian and was a believer for over 20 years. I’ve read the bible many times and can quote many passages off by heart. I’ve studied all the arguments for and against Christianity and can see it from both sides. My intelligence and logic couldn’t allow me believing in god or religion anymore.
So, if my mind is closed now, it’s only because it’s closed to things like the Easter Bunny and tooth fairies too.
30 July, 2007 at 8:43 pm
D said:
In an internet discussion though D, words make up about 100% of communication.
30 July, 2007 at 10:08 pm
@ D
My article Something is Rotten in the Garden of Eden discusses a lot of what we’ve talked about here.
30 July, 2007 at 10:48 pm
evanescent,
You weren’t brought up Christian - you were brought up a Jehovah’s Witness which is a non christian cult. A polytheistic religion.
Just thought I would clear up your record.
30 July, 2007 at 10:51 pm
evanscent,
You have me moderated? Here I vowed myself not to discuss evolution with you anymore and then you moderate me?
I went over to IIDA and signed up - but they are like the rest of you. Their sign up agreement tells you not to disagree with them.
30 July, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Geno, you do not get to decide what constitutes Christianity or not. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a polytheistic religion. Christianity can’t even decide itself on the interpretation of the bible, so it’s pretty rich you claiming victory for your sect over another.
Considering that I was actually one, don’t you think I might have a better idea about what they believe than you?
Your attempt at trying to “clear up your record” is not only patronising, but pretty embarrassing for you.
Yeah I’m sure it does. Also, it’s IIDB.
If you start a new thread there and get a discussion going, let me know and I’ll be happy to join in.
31 July, 2007 at 12:12 am
evanscent,
by making this statement. “Well, I was raised a fundamentalist Christian and was a believer for over 20 years.”
I only bring this topic up because you laid claim to authority (in an above post to “D”
Now I am sure that you would agree that a Christian cannot be a polytheist - (if that can be so, then I am a Jesus believing atheist)
John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” See how it says that the Word (Jesus) is God?
The Jehovah’s Witnesses in their New World Translation revised that verse so that no one would mistaken them for monotheists. They revised it to say “In the beginning the Word was, and the word was with God, and the word was a god.” (Take note, it says “a God.”
evanscent, do you see my problem? The JW’s are polytheists - if Jesus (the Word) was a god, there must be other gods. Therefore, JWs cannot be Christians and hence, you could not have been a Christian so you cannot use that as an authority card when it comes to discussing the Bible. You can however say that you were an interested party for 20 years.
Now, I am sure that they are nice people, just not Christians.
31 July, 2007 at 11:28 am
Your logic is flawed. You cannot be an atheist AND believe in Christ; that is a contradiction. However, it is not a contradiction to believe in many gods AND be a Christian, depending on your interpretation of scripture. (Something that Christians themselves cannot agree on.)
Your analogy above was very bad logic.
Yes I’m aware of this passage.
No, they revised it because they believe the passage “the Word WAS god” is erroneous. They dispute the translation.
Yes I know. As I say, they dispute the translation. They interpret “a” god to mean godlike, although not God himself. Which, whether you agree this or not, makes a lot more sense than the ridiculous Trinity notion.
Wrong, for the reason above. Their beliefs determine their theistic nature, not your interpretation.
Wrong. JWs are Christians because they claim to follow the teachers of Jesus. You do not get to decide what is the criteria for “true” Christianity, Geno.
Wrong, again.
Your patronisation is almost as bad as your logic!
Besides, whether you agree with what I was or wasn’t anyway doesn’t stop me talking with authority on the bible, since I do know what I’m talking about. (An advantage most atheists have over theists).
Now that we’ve cleared that up, we should stick to discussing the original article.
31 July, 2007 at 2:18 pm
evanscent,
So, if I cannot be the interpreter of what Christianity is, why do you get to be the one who decides who gets into the atheist club?
My point is that if you can define a polytheist as a Christian (terms have no meanings to you) then I can define myself (who knows me better than me) as a Christ believing atheist.
Anyway, I was not being patronizing. You made a claim to authority and I challenged the authority. I was shouted down once by you or tobe for saying that I was like you for the first 32 years of my life. I was a scientist who was without belief. I debated theists on college campuses regularly so I knew from whence I spoke. But since I had become “enlightened” that negated my previous life as an authority and I had no standing in atheist conversation. But you get to keep your authority badge.
Hmmm!
One last thing - there is not one other Christian group that accepts JWs as a Christian body. (I just didn’t want you fooling “D” since he was new here.
Have a good day today. I am taking my 3 grandkids to the county fair today.
31 July, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Geno, if I might interject,
You didn’t say you were like me, you said you were me. You then went on to say that you were (actually were, not just like) Evanescent. I dindn’t shout you down, I just suggested you might have some sort of identity crisis.
Evanescent clearly explained that Jehova’s Witnesses are not polytheists (anymore than you are for believing in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). There is always a certain amount of authority in language. The word atheist simply means someone who does not believe in any gods, nothing more. To say you’re a Christ believing (assuming you mean a divine Christ, not just a historical one) atheist is a logical contradiction, like saying that you’re a beef eating vegetarian.
31 July, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Easy. Atheism has a single definition: one who doesn’t believe in any god. Christianity has many competing definition.
I’ve already explained this: yours entails a contradiction, mine does not.
If one believes the scriptures support a few of polytheism, then one COULD be a Christian. It’s a hypothetical scenario. But it’s irrelevant either way because JWs believe that Christ is a godlike being, without being the Almight Father himself. But they’re not polytheists.
Unlike you though Geno, I wasn’t claiming to be ‘just like’ anyone else.
I was saying that as a former theist, no one could hurl the accusation of ignorance at me, whether it be philosophically, religiously, or biblically.
But again, there are many atheists who were never believers who also have excellent authority to speak on these matters.
I wouldn’t say it negates your authority. You have the authority to speak as a non-believer who became a believer.
Whether people respect your authority or not depends more on how logical and rational you are.
My opinion of you is that you’re very logical and raional… until it comes to religion, at which point you will not shed your beliefs, so you are bound to them, which compromises your intelligent and reason. In this respect, you are just like any other theist: you sacrifice your thinking ability to faith.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Yeah, and there isn’t a Christian group that thinks Allah is God! What’s your point?!
And the fact that many (I disagree with your statement of ALL Christians) don’t view JWs in the same light is an Argument from Popularity.
Accusing me of trying to “fool” anyone is, again, patronising.
I’m going to a concert soon myself. Have a good day!
31 July, 2007 at 5:18 pm
In response to evanescent’s response:
First of all, God didn’t create a talking snake. It doesn’t say that in the Bible. The serpent’s appearance is introduced, saying that it was more cunning than the other animals. The serpent was possesed by satan, obviously, whom God had previously created with the ability of free will.
You ask why God created us with the ability of free will in the first place? God is all-knowing, and He knew us before He created us, so He loved us enough to give us free will. If God took away our free will, that would be unjust, and it would not be something a perfect God would do. Mabye you wouldn’t let your kids make desicions, but that’s because you aren’t perfect. God on the other hand, is, and He loves us. So much that He let us make our own desicions.
God didn’t “murder” people. He killed some, yes, but realize that God only wants the best for us, and if the loss of one is required, then the loss of one would probably be the better choice. In the Bible, it says God weeps for those who don’t accept Him. I’ll give you an example if you ask for it.
You don’t “decide” what is literal and what isn’t. You should know it just by reading it, and knowing that these are accounts taken by someone who wrote them, and might not always be using literal terms.
For all I know, it could have been a day. It also could have taken longer than 24 hours for the earth to make a revolution. Either way, it doesn’t matter.
Yes, Eve was tricked, but she was still the one making the choice. She wasn’t forced to sin. She was probably as smart as you and I are, only without the knowledge of good and evil. It could have taken her years before she ate the food. It doesn’t really matter. Adam ate because Eve was his wife, so it didn’t take as long for him.
No matter who took Adam and/or Eve’s place, humans would have eventually sinned. There wasn’t any avoiding it.
From what I’ve seen on this blog is that you never were a Christian. Apparently, you were a Jehovah’s Witness. Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t Christian; they are a non-Christian cult (at least they’re known as a cult).
The Easter bunny isn’t a religion. Christianity is different than the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny. For instance, the tooth fairy doesn’t have answers that are a matter of eternal life or eternal death.
You don’t support your answers with logic OR the Bible. If you can find a verse that says, “God created a talking snake…” I might understand your piont of view.
31 July, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Here are the quotes:
“Science is not about absolute certainty”
“Science is based on EVIDENCE. The EVIDENCE supports evolution, not creation. Therefore to say that creation is logical but contradicts science is a contradiction. You are saying that you believe in something even though there is no evidence, which is about as illogical as you can possibly get.”
In the second quote, you’re saying that I have to support my answers with science, in which case, you are saying that science is absolutely certain.
31 July, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Apparently, I need to emphasize this next sentence, you didn’t get it when I told you.
THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS.
For one, we can decide for ourselves, and we can think things through. The very fact that we can think things through provides sufficient evidence of God’s existence. If our thoughts are just chemical reactions (or whatever it is you think thoughts are), how can we trust our thoughts? How can you know that you are right if your thoughts are just a bunch of chemical responses? You shouldn’t even be arguing if your thoughts can’t be trusted.
That was just an example. If you want more examples, I’m happy to provide them.
31 July, 2007 at 5:30 pm
just a question. I noticed you use the word, “patronize” (and other forms of the word) a lot, and usually in odd ways. Do you know the definition of patronizing, or do you just like the word? (no offense. it’s just a question)
31 July, 2007 at 5:33 pm
“I was saying that as a former theist, no one could hurl the accusation of ignorance at me, whether it be philosophically, religiously, or biblically.”
That’s what you said. I disagree, I can easily call you ignorant after your last response to me. Just to prove you wrong (that’s just how I am), I’ll say that you are ignorant. At least towards logic if nothing else.
31 July, 2007 at 5:58 pm
tobe,
How wrong you are. Just as you claim that there is a definition of atheist, so their is a definition of Christian.
All Christians by definition believe;
1.) The atonement of Christ’s death for our sins.
2.) The virgin birth
3.) Jesus is God
4.) Salvation by grace
5.) The bodily resurrection of Christ from the dead.
6.) The trinity.
If you don’t believe those 6 things, you eliminate yourself from being called a Christian.
Back to polytheism, I don’t care what level of god evanescent wants to put Jesus when he says that JWs believe he is “a god” - that still makes them polytheists - they believe in more than 1 god (high level, low level it doesn’t matter.) The point is (and I don’t expect you to know or understand) but they went out of their way to separate themselves by re translating the bible so that they would not be confused with monotheists or Christians.
Whenever they come to my door I always greet them with “Oh, you guys are the polytheists.” They jump back an say “no, where did you ever get that idea?” I reply, “from your bible” and I show them the passage. They give the standard denial (just like evanescent) and I tell them the same thing - “senior god, junior gods - all the same, too many gods.” I don’t know why but it always ends the discussion.
Gotta, go - time for the fair to begin.
31 July, 2007 at 8:34 pm
I leave for a day, and the thread explodes. I love it.
e, I can’t believe you’re getting sucked into an argument with Geno about whether JW’s are mono or poly. Or what a True Christian is. Who cares? I think he likes to get you sidetracked. The issue of this post is whether ID is science. It’s not, and so far, no one has posted anything to contradict that.
Derek (”D”
seems to want to discuss his interpretations of the Bible. I don’t think any atheist should really get into arguments about mundane interpretations of the Bible, at least not long, drawn out ones, until someone proves to my satisfaction that the Bible is actually an authority for anything. It’s a just a book. Written by ignorant people in ignorant times about matters they didn’t understand. It’s not the Word of God, because God doesn’t exist, until someone proves that to me, the book purporting to be His word has no authority. Why don’t we interpret Hamlet, instead? It will be far more interesting, and probably have more relevance to our daily lives.
31 July, 2007 at 8:57 pm
@ D
Forgive me if I’m sceptical.
Your argument, if I may summarise, is basically this:
P. If we can think, God must exist.
P. We can think.
C. Therefore God exists.
It’s the first premise that I have a bit of a problem with. You said yourself, if our thoughts are just chemical reactions, we shouldn’t trust them. Maybe our thoughts are just chemical reactions, and therefore you shouldn’t trust the thoughts that lead you to conclude that God exists.
Even if our thoughts are just chemical reactions, why shouldn’t we trust them? You claim yourself that the Devil can possess people, how can you be sure that the Devil has not possessed you, and how could you trust your thoughts then? And what do you mean ‘trust our thoughts’, anyway? You mean trust that they’re true or correct? Maybe they’re not. That’s what we use science for, collecting evidence to objectively find out if they’re correct. Where our thoughts are subjective, it doesn’t matter, it’s just a matter of opinion. It’s our opinion.
This may do as evidence for you, with a foot-up from your faith, but I need a lot more.
Yes please, but please refer to this article before doing so. If your next piece of ‘evidence’ is not from the list, you’ll probably be wasting your time.
31 July, 2007 at 9:01 pm
@ Spanish Inquisitor
Well said.
@ D
Let’s get right back to the main point. Evanescent’s article was arguing the point that intelligent design is not scientific. If you think it is, then show how the theory of intelligent design is falsifiable. All scientific theories have to be falsifiable - what would it take to convince you that creationism is wrong?
31 July, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I know there’s a fallacy in there somewhere. I just know it! Where, oh where, is it?
31 July, 2007 at 9:52 pm
tobe,
I will tell you what will make creationism falsifiable. Show me something that was created out of nothing - or that you could show me that it is even possible that something can be created out of nothing. Show me today with all of your knowledge and technology something created out of absolute nothingness. Since you can’t, I must ask that you hand over your sword.
The whole theory of creationism is based on the FACT that creation takes a creator - a big bang requires a BIG BANGER. (and for my point, I don’t even need to describe or name who this creator / banger is)
The absolute terror on the part of today’s atheist about Intelligent Design is what has created the vicious “New Atheists” 21st century edition that has gone from the Paul Kurtz and Gordon Stein version to attack dogs like Dawkins, Harris etc. Bark is all they can do as atheism flushes down the toilet.
31 July, 2007 at 10:09 pm
A BIG BANGER! LOL. I’m keeping this for future reference.
God is just a Big Banger! I wonder if there’s a bumper sticker out there with that?
I think this is where Richard Dawkins came up with the Delusion part of “The God Delusion”.
31 July, 2007 at 10:12 pm
We can’t demonstrate that something came to exist out of nothing. You say as much yourself, which means you haven’t given an example of how creationism can be falsified. For it to be scientific, there has to be a way, in theory, that it could actually be proven wrong, with evidence that we really could find. So, intelligent design still not looking very scientific from here.
Even if we could show that something came into existence out of nothing, how would that disprove creationism? Wouldn’t you argue that it was created from nothing by God?
By the way, don’t get confused between the evolution of life, and the origin of life. The general theory of evolution has nothing to say about the latter.
I’m gonna stab in the dark and say God? And God came from . . . where? If the universe had to have a beginning, then so did God. If not, your committing a logical fallacy called ’special pleading’.
Blah blah blah. That’s all I hear when I read your rants about Dawkins and the ‘new’ atheists. Instead of moaning about how mean and nasty they are, why don’t you actually deal with their arguments?
31 July, 2007 at 10:13 pm
I think I found that fallacy. It’s in here somewhere.
31 July, 2007 at 11:17 pm
tobe,
I have dealt several times in the past with Dawkin’s argument that it is better to molest your children than to take them to Sunday School (page 317 of The god Delusion.) You haven’t had the guts to denounce the revered one.
I have no problem with the evolution of life. Human beings have evolved. It’s just that they have always been human beings. Just like a 1917 Ford does not resemble a 2007 Ford, they have always been Fords and they have always been automobiles - but they have evolved to the better.
I read the blogs - today’s atheist is terrified.
31 July, 2007 at 11:41 pm
I’ll do it. Your characterization of Dawkins’s writing is nothing less than disingenuous.
First, he does not say, “…that it is better to molest your children than to take them to Sunday School…”
What he does do is give an example of a woman who was psychologically traumatized by the teaching of her church that a very dear friend of hers went to hell “because she was a Protestant”. She had also been fondled as a child, and opined that the fondling, compared to the horror of living with the fact that her friend was in hell, was relatively insignificant.
Dawkins used that story, and the letter from the now 40 year old woman, to illustrate the point that “…it is at least possible for psychological abuse of children to outclass physical.” (p. 31
Are you sure you read the book?
It is not better to be molested than go to Sunday School. But there could be cases where the long term damage of abuse could be far outweighed by the long term damage of belief in nonsense told to a child at an impressionable age.
That’s just stupid.
31 July, 2007 at 11:52 pm
@ Geno,
No, Geno, you tried to bring this up on the comments of an article of mine where it had absolutely no relevance at all. Evanescent has already responded to your comments without further reply from you, but ok, here it is.
You quoted Dawkins likening child abuse to “an embarrassing but otherwise harmless experience”. What you failed to mention is that Dawkins was referring to his own experience. Quite misleading on your part to leave that out. Dawkins is entitled to interpret his own experiences in any way he chooses, and if you didn’t agree with that, you would not have tried to conceal that rather important detail.
You also fail to address Dawkins account of the girl who was molested and bereaved within the space of a few months, the friend she lost, she was told, had gone to hell. Learning that her friend was burning in hell for all eternity was by far the more traumatic and harrowing event for her.
This is not necessarily always the case, but it makes an important point. It is patronising to tell a child that because they have been molested their life is now over. Many people who were molested as children grow up to be confident, fully rounded people with happy lives and healthy relationships. Many people who are indoctrinated with religious dogma as children grow up with extreme psychological damage and emotional baggage. There are exceptions either way in both cases, but I agree with Dawkins that they are not dissimilar, and they are comparable. Personally, I don’t agree with him that religious indoctrination is worse than molestation per se, but I think it can be, depending on which cases you examine.
For you to just write Dawkins off as someone without moral values, or “advocating” sexual abuse is completely irrational. Just because you say one thing is worse than another, doesn’t mean you’re advocating the other. Murder is worse than theft, but I’m not advocating theft.
You haven’t actually engaged with what Dawkins really said at all.
Are you saying you believe in micro evolution, but not macro evolution?
You’re right Geno, I am terrified. I fear for my life, and I mean that literally. I was in London only 5 days before the bombings on July 7th 2005. I travelled on the underground on one of the lines that was bombed - I still have my ticket.
I’m scared of someone with faith in Allah blowing me up. I’m scared of someone with faith in Jesus Christ trying to take away the freedoms my country grant me, and I’m scared of the same Christians earning the right to teach children fairytales as science.
What I’m not scared of, is the truth. I’m not scared to question my beliefs, to submit them to scrutiny and discard them if they don’t survive. Can you say the same?
By the way, it would be just swell and dandy if you could actually respond to my points in my last comment about creationism not being falsifiable, and you’re argument for the existence of God committing the ’special pleading’ fallacy.
1 August, 2007 at 6:51 am
tobe my friend, (and I do mean that in a sincere fashion)
You are a tough nut to deal with. First you ask about creationism (which deals with how things came into being) by asking this question; “what would it take to convince you that creationism is wrong?”
Then, when I give you a pretty detailed reply, you make it seem that I replied to an irrelevant question - you said; “By the way, don’t get confused between the evolution of life, and the origin of life. The general theory of evolution has nothing to say about the latter.”
So, do you want to talk about evolution or the creation of things? You can try to jump back and forth, but I will continue to nail you to the ground until you stay on subject.
Yes, and I will use your terms, I believe in micro evolution and not macro evolution.
But let me tell you a fear of mine. I take leave every spring quarter (for the past 15 years)from my teaching duties and I travel to several universities to discuss how science and faith work together. I travel with an astronomer and a biologist. Every visit we make, someone has made a threat before we arrive or something gets thrown at us while we make our presentation. Why are atheists so hostile?
1 August, 2007 at 7:02 am
Spanish Inquisitor,
Here was the quote I referred to.
Richard Dawkins – The God Delusion - Page 317
“Once, in the question time after a lecture in Dublin, I was asked what I thought about the widely publicized cases of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland. I replied that, horrible as sexual abuse no doubt was, the damage was arguably less than the long-term psychological damage inflicted by bringing up a child Catholic in the first place.”
(Hence my paraphrase “it is better to molest children than to take them to Sunday School”
Here is a man who was brought up with strong Anglican parents, in the Anglican church and went to Anglican schools. He seems to have turned out OK hasn’t he (wrong on the issues but seems to be quite well adjusted)? By the testimony of his own life, he seems to have benefited from his religious upbringing. I wonder if he thinks his parents were terrible people? I doubt it!
1 August, 2007 at 9:02 am
@ Geno
I think you know what I meant Geno and this is another attempt to dodge the issue, but ok, let me clarify. You believe everything was created, so that’s what you’re going to refer to, but don’t criticise evolution for not explaining how life began, because it isn’t a theory of how life began, only of how it developed once it had started. I was trying to preempt a misunderstanding.
You still haven’t given an example of how creationism really could be falsified. That doesn’t make it false, but it does make it unscientific.
They are the same thing. Macro evolution just takes longer. If you accept that positive mutations can take place, that natural selection can guide evolution and that evolution has had billions of life to develop the nested hierarchy we see around us, I don’t see what problem you can have with the general theory of evolution - that all life evolved from one ancestor.
You are, of course, generalising widely. I don’t know what you do on your talks, but if you don’t answer people’s questions like you don’t answer mind, that can get them pretty riled up.
You still haven’t responded to my point about ’special pleading’.
You paraphrased it in a misleading way that benefited your argument. You made it sound like Dawkins was saying that it’s better, on any one given Sunday, to molest a child than to take that child to Sunday school, which is ludicrous. He’s comparing an prolonged cases of sexual abuse and relentless religious indoctrination. Very different - I agree with the Spanish Inquisitor’s view that your analysis was disingenious.
Actually, his religious upbringing was pretty relaxed, as it tends to be in the Anglican church - they’re not big on fire and brimstone. You’ve changed your tone on Dawkins now that you have a different point to make, earlier he was a disgusting example of someone without values. I’m sure he doesn’t think his parents were terrible people, as he generally doesn’t think most people are terrible - because, as he argues in the book, most religious people don’t take their morality from their religion.
1 August, 2007 at 9:29 am
Wow. Quite an impressive thread now. Too much to comment on all in one go, and Tobe and Spanish Inquisitor have done a pretty good job addressing everything. Two things to pick out that made me chuckle:
D said:
Seriously, did you even think this one through before you read it, or did you just hope I would gloss over it and not call you on it? You must have cringed when you read this back to yourself…
As for logic, read what I said about problems with the creation account. You can either explain them or renounce your faith.
Tell me Derek, did God create all the animals or not?? Now, the bible says the serpent was the most subtle of all the beasts of the field. And later it is cursed to crawl on its belly. If the serpent was Satan, the passage MAKES NO SENSE. It is referring to a literal snake. It’s pretty obvious.
But then, I already explained the above to you so all I could do is just repeat myself.
(And yes I do know what ‘patronising’ means. The reason I use it so often is because when debating with Geno I find myself needing to!) Which brings me to:
Geno said:
My…..irony…..meter……just….exploded….!
Anyway, back to the topic…
1 August, 2007 at 3:03 pm
God didn’t make animals that could talk, otherwise, they would have named themselves, not Adam. Something had to have made the serpent talk, and that something couldn’t be God or anyone who followed God, considering it decieved Eve and tricked her to sin. I’ve explained the rest of this to you, so I won’t repeat myself.
I don’t really care if that was on topic. I was just responding.
1 August, 2007 at 3:29 pm
@ D
God created everything! Including the devil and including the snake. If he was all powerful and all knowing, then he would have known EVERYTHING that would ever happen, and it could only have been made exactly how he wanted it to be. He WANTED the talking snake to deceive Eve and trick her, because if he didn’t, then something happened that he either didn’t foresee, or couldn’t control. If that was the case, then he couldn’t be perfect.
1 August, 2007 at 3:30 pm
@tobe
As you should have noticed, I’m using logic, not science. This means that I don’t believe that our thoughts are chemical reactions. I also know that if satan possesed me, I wouldn’t be talking against him, and I know that because I’m a Christian, satan can’t possess me, or anyone around me. I would normally quote that Bible verse, but I doubt that I need to.
I didn’t say that because we think, God is. Although I was indirectly saying that, I was trying to support the fact that humans are much too complex to be formed out of nothing without help. As a matter of fact, anything is too complex to be formed out of nothing without any help.
_______________________________________________
@spanish inquisitor
I’ll explain why I think God exists.
The theories of how the earth came around are illogical. Here are 2 main theories:
1. big bang
2. the universe is eternal
The big bang theory contradicts science itself, since scientists STILL don’t know how singularity came to be. Something can’t come from nothing. Basically, that’s all there is to say about that.
_____________________________________________
The universe can’t be eternal. I probably can’t explain this as well as the author of “The God Argument,” so here’s a quote:
“you can only have a finite succession of events. For example the earth could only have spun a finite number of times. It could continue spinning on forever, but at any point in the future, the number of times it had spun would always be a finite number. If the universe were eternal, it would have no past or future like we know them, but rather it would exist in a moment of eternity where time never flows.”
________________________________________________
After the big bang, most ask, “Well then where did God come from?” He didn’t come from anything. He doesn’t have a beginning because He is the beginning. He can’t have an end because He is eternal. God is also outside of time, therefore not subject to it.
hope that helped
1 August, 2007 at 3:33 pm
True, that the devil was created by God. Don’t forget that God is also defined as having never-ending love. This means He created Adam, Eve, and satan, all with free will. That’s how much God loves His creation. If He took away everyone’s free will, He would be much of a Father, now, would He? A perfect God doesn’t take away His creations’ free will.
1 August, 2007 at 3:40 pm
tobe,
3 points.
1.) If Dawkins had to decide between a child being brought up in a long term bad church relationship or being molested, which would he choose for the child? I do believe that he stated clearly that molestation is better.
2.) “that all life evolved from one ancestor.” Who is that ancestor? I will make it simple on you - who is the common ancestor for man and apes (you pick which kind)? I am not asking you to go back to the beginning, just one up the chain from us. Isn’t it odd to make a claim and not have an answer?
3.) “that natural selection can guide evolution and that evolution has had billions of life to develop” - I just calculated th