Your comments are in quotes:

>”Nice post. Strong words. Are you sure you are not trapped by your belief system? Things happen, and then people add the meaning they want. You’ve just added your meaning to your reality.”

I wouldn’t agree that I have a belief system. My worldview is rationalism, and a corollary of that is my atheism and skepticism.

You’re right, things do just happen. I can accept that bad things happen to people for no good reason as just the way the world is. I don’t actually attach a “depper” meaning to these events apart from the obvious.

>”But why do you think Christians sit around blaming or thanking God and doing nothing? Many, many Christians are active in charity work. Their view of reality does not preclude positive action.”

This is true and they’re to be commended. Not all Christians sit around doing nothing but one understands charity less when one believes that this world is supposed to be this way. If God doesn’t want to help people and wants the world to be this way, why should humans change what god has deemed acceptable?

“I said: “I think you are on to something when you say: “But no “god” EVER did ANYTHING to make this world a better place. HUMANS make this world a dump at times, and HUMANS can also make it a paradise too.”

>”That’s exactly the deal with free will. Use it as you please. (Warning: There are consequences, and they may not be evident until much later)”

As thinking agents, most humans have “free will” in the sense that we can control and understand our actions, and appreciate the consequences of them, yes.

>”You may not understand why God chose to give people free will, but if for a moment you accept that this was an important part of his plan, then it also explains why there is a “hands off” approach to running your life.”

The Free Will Defence doesn’t appear to be a strong rebuttal to the Problem of Evil. It doesn’t change the fact that God COULD have made the world without evil if he wanted to. Or he could have made a world where people could freely CHOOSE to commit evil (to test us) but no innocent person could suffer as a result.

For the innocent to suffer (which happens everyday) is the exact opposite of justice and fairness. What exactly are we being tested for?

If we are allowed free will for a reason, a test, it is only fair that every human know and accept this, otherwise god is not playing fair. But since no one can agree on what God is or even prove he exists, this doesn’t seem to hold much water.

Free will is not a magic ethereal quality that humans have. It is the limit to which we can control and understand our actions. Our free will is limited every day in some ways: by physics, the law, other people, our conscience, and our understanding.

A psychopath may choose to kill someone and have total control of his actions, but not understand that it is wrong. Is this person free?

Alternatively, a mental patient may know that stealing or urinating in public is wrong, but may be powerless to control their actions. Is this person free?

Our actions in a given situation can only be considered free if we have control over our actions and the consequences of them (ie we know right from wrong) or in your case: what God requires. But if the “test” is secret to us, how can any divine test be fair?

Finally, even if all the above is put aside, there is still the problem of suffering in the world that isn’t caused by human free will. Specifically, the disformed people I mentioned in my original post. These people were harmed by a freak of nature. Whose free will is being tested here? Even if humans had to be allowed to commit evil, that doesn’t explain non-human “evil”. How does a loving god excuse this?

>”Although, I gather there was this one time God did something to make the world a better place, and we are supposed to reflect on that over Easter.”

If you believe that particular story, God sending his son to earth to die was always moving for me as a theist.

But when you consider that he had to kill an innocent to appease himself for the crimes of humans that didn’t know they did anything wrong in a test he put them to thousands of years ago, in a situation and world that he created and knew the outcome to in the first place – it makes no sense.

He could have just not created Satan – problem solved.

>”It’s not a perfect world, but beauty can be found in the most unexpected of places, and we can all contribute to that. Have a nice life.”

I totally agree. This world can be beautiful, and people can be beautiful. But we can only make this world better if humans help other humans.

My only caveat is that the world SHOULD be perfect if a perfect God made it. And clinging to a belief in any God is not likely to bring about better change for humans. Time to shake off the shackles of the mind I believe, and live a better life without god(s).

All the best to you ZenTiger!

But why do you think Christians sit around blaming or thanking God and doing nothing? Many, many Christians are active in charity work. Their view of reality does not preclude positive action.

I think you are on to something when you say: “But no “god” EVER did ANYTHING to make this world a better place. HUMANS make this world a dump at times, and HUMANS can also make it a paradise too.”

That’s exactly the deal with free will. Use it as you please. (Warning: There are consequences, and they may not be evident until much later)

You may not understand why God chose to give people free will, but if for a moment you accept that this was an important part of his plan, then it also explains why there is a “hands off” approach to running your life.

Although, I gather there was this one time God did something to make the world a better place, and we are supposed to reflect on that over Easter.

It’s not a perfect world, but beauty can be found in the most unexpected of places, and we can all contribute to that. Have a nice life.